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On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 1:46 AM Giulio Prisco <giulio@gmail.com> wrote:

> OK John, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

I think fundamentally we agree more than we disagree.

> let me summarize yet another good argument for psi.

>If our sci/tech continues to develop, it seems likely or at least plausible that one day, perhaps in only >a few centuries, most humans will have brain implants with neural lace connected to whatever the >internet will become. In other words, most humans will be telepathic. We will also be able to control >some kind of utility fog to move things and act in the physical world. In other words, most humans >will have psychokinetic abilities. I could continue and cover all parts of psi... So psi will exist in our >universe.

I agree, except that in a few centuries (perhaps a few decades) it will not be biological humans that have such abilities but our descendants the machines, what Hans Moravec called our "Mind Children" in his book by the same name, a book I highly recommend.

> if we can find a way to do something, I guess nature must have found ways to do the same thing. >Some degree of psi would evidently have evolutionary value, so I guess it is included in Darwin's >playbook.

Not necessarily because random mutation and natural selection is horribly cruel, inefficient and slow, but until it finally managed to produce a brain, after billions of years of fumbling around, it was the only way complex objects could get made. Intelligent design works much faster, we only got serious about building brains about 70 years ago and look at the enormous progress we've made in that short time.

John K Clark

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​> ​Hi John, I think we are talking past each other. If I really want to

believe that psi is a thing, and you really want to believe that it

isn't, no argument will ever change my mind or yours.

I plead guilty as charged: I really want to believe that psi is a thing.

I wish it were real, I think it would've been great fun if psi had turned out to exist and I think most people feel that way too, but the universe is not required to conform to the wishes of human beings. You don't need a $10 billion particle accelerator to investigate it so if psi had been real it would have been proven to be so many centuries ago to the satisfaction of even the most skeptical, and today high school freshmen would be repeating those classic 17 century psy experiments in their science fair projects. It's a pity but that's just not the universe we live in.

​> ​while not yet supported by direct​ ​experimental evidence, string theory has produced results (e.g.

AdS/CFT) that can be used to calculate things in the real world (e.g.

duality between quark-gluon plasma in the lab and hyperdimensional​ ​black holes).

String theory has never made a prediction confirmed to be correct ​by an ​experiment that had not already been predicted by other far less convoluted theories. To confirm a new string theory prediction you would need a particle accelerator that can reach energies at the Planck level, and with current technology that would require a machine at least as big as the solar system.

​> ​Some speculative (I guess you would call them fringe)

string-based models seem to provide theoretical models for psi.

As I said, before I become interested in making a model of something I'd want to know that something exists that needs modeling. There is no burning need to explain how psy works, just as there's no burning need to explain how magic works in books like Harry Potter or the Bible. By the way, I found one of those books to be very entertaining.

​> ​I have​ ​too much respect for my fellow human beings to entirely dismiss the

"anecdotal evidence" provided by countless people over the centuries.

There are a lot of things I respect about my fellow human beings​ ​but being able to give accurate accounts of what they just saw or experienced is not one of them. There was anecdotal evidence, or to be more precise there was allegedly anecdotal evidence​, that Mohammed flew from Mecca to Jerusalem in one day on the back of a flying mule and then climbed to heaven on a ladder. And I don't believe one word of it. ​

John K Clark

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